Curse

Metanoia · Aug 06, 2006, 01:29 PM // 13:29

Interesting...

"PvE has a cookie-cutter option, not a problem"
I'm sure there are many un-loved PvE Assassins that have been reduced to henching through the game that might disagree with that statement. Remember, there's a distinct difference between opinion and fact.

"Well, it is too long."
How is the distance to the flag stand any different to the distance between you and the nearest mob in a PvE scenario?
How does it any take longer to grab 8 skills and start a scrimmage match than it does to grab 8 skills and start a PvE mission? It's a scrimmage, you make the rules. There doesn't have to be any pre-game coordination at all, it can just be two happy-go-lucky teams facing off... after an epic journey up the face of Mount Evere-- I mean, after moving to the flag stand.

antoninus · Aug 06, 2006, 01:31 PM // 13:31

1st
.........there was a time when i really got into PvP that started when i made consecutive wins as a boon prot at RA which then proceeded to TA. i made friends and fortunately they we're really good and had some unique, fun and strong builds. they would pm me whenever they needed a monk and it was pure PvP fun when you see your party alive after a grueling battle with a poison,bleeding,cripple sword Ranger with a pet spamming disrupting lounge, Esurge,mindwrack,eburn,shatter enchant,drain enchant,sig. of weariness Mesmer with Blackout and an Air Ele spamming Lightning strike, Lightning orb on you and Blinding Flash on your War.

after 2 weeks of pure RA/TA as a monk and e-denial mesmer i decided to go to Heroes Ascent to try to win some games and get /rank to work when i type it. unfortunately and most depressingly the only thing that met me there was rank discrimination. i'm not with an all-PvP guild so my experience of that kind of gameplay isn't limited. and i DO know that "rank" (more or less) determines one's experience of GW PvP which is highly important when doing battles in HA but after a few days of trying to get into a group, i finally gave up on it. i still monk at TA once in a while but unless i'm with friends and/or a guild entirely devoted to PvP i can't imagine myself giving up PvE for it.

2nd
what i like about PvE is that i get to see on my character the fruits of the hours and days i've spent working on it; the 15k, the fow the 15^50 weapons, etc. PvP has that too in the form of a "cool looking avatar" that spawns from your character for everyone to see but as i said above... =_=

Andy_M · Aug 06, 2006, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Some of us hench through the game by choice you know..

Matix411 · Aug 06, 2006, 03:33 PM // 15:33

Basically, my computer is too slow.
I hate it, really.
Even in PvE, it loads absolutely fine if I'm playing on my own, solo. If I bring henchies, then it lags ridiculously at my first enemy encounter, which, sadly causes me to perish quite often as I'll enter the battle, think I'm putting on enchants and such amidst all the lag, but no, really I'm just getting owned.
It works much the same when I'm with a group only there's more lag spikes than anything, and the first encounter with an enemy is horrid and often the screen just pauses for a good 5 minutes. This is also horrible on load times, usually in/out of town loads are ridiculously slow, so, naturally, in a PvP or GvG match, by the time I get in the game, it's loaded.
I'll admit after a few minutes it runs somewhat decently considering the only thing I have above minimum requirements is my vid card.

So, if I had a faster computer, that moved smoothly enough for me to worry about what's going on in game while I'm PLAYING rather than in game while I'm waiting for the game to stop freezing up.
It's sad, really. I've always wanted to get immersed in the world of PvP and GvG but it's just too frustrating with a slow computer. I do it every so often for relief, but, since I don't play often enough, I'm left only to read about builds and team strategies and never get time to try them.

One day soon perhaps ...

Gli · Aug 06, 2006, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metanoia

Interesting...

"PvE has a cookie-cutter option, not a problem"
I'm sure there are many un-loved PvE Assassins that have been reduced to henching through the game that might disagree with that statement. Remember, there's a distinct difference between opinion and fact.

Funny. One of the first things you PvP guys always throw at people is: "Find a good guild." That goes for PvE too you know. My statement is fact, not opinion. Every unloved assassin has final say in whether he wants to play with someone or not. Of course, other people have the same choice regarding him. That doesn't force him to go cookie-cutter. He just needs to find a group of people he's compatible with. Henchies are a far more entertaining choice than latching on to the cookie-cutter crew anyway.

No PvE player needs to get within 100 yards of a cookie-cutter if he doesn't want to. That's the simple truth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metanoia

"Well, it is too long."
How is the distance to the flag stand any different to the distance between you and the nearest mob in a PvE scenario?
How does it any take longer to grab 8 skills and start a scrimmage match than it does to grab 8 skills and start a PvE mission? It's a scrimmage, you make the rules. There doesn't have to be any pre-game coordination at all, it can just be two happy-go-lucky teams facing off... after an epic journey up the face of Mount Evere-- I mean, after moving to the flag stand.

If there weren't any pre-game coordination, I'd be sitting around the guild hall waiting for someone to join my scrimmage match until I starved. The walk to the flag stand is too long because the game that follows isn't worth it. Press some buttons, dodge some attacks, people die, game over. I fail to see how that could be fun to anyone. No challenge, no sense of accomplishment, no reward, no excitement. PvP reduced to pure mechanics with nothing to redeem the tedium. No thanks.

Arturo02 · Aug 06, 2006, 06:24 PM // 18:24

"Funny. One of the first things you PvP guys always throw at people is: "Find a good guild." That goes for PvE too you know. My statement is fact, not opinion. Every unloved assassin has final say in whether he wants to play with someone or not. Of course, other people have the same choice regarding him. That doesn't force him to go cookie-cutter. He just needs to find a group of people he's compatible with. Henchies are a far more entertaining choice than latching on to the cookie-cutter crew anyway.

No PvE player needs to get within 100 yards of a cookie-cutter if he doesn't want to. That's the simple truth."

Cmon Gil, you know that's not true. There are so many people so set in their ways in this game on both ends. I was doing a quest on newbie isle and everyone insisted that I get an MM, can't do this quest w/o a mm. I had myself, an experienced player with a new char, two lvl 20 guildies, and a couple pickups. The same pug who said we needed an mm was also the one running ahead and leeroying out of our monk's range. He was the first to die of course.

So we went back to town after we all died, got rid of our mm fanboi and finished the quest. The other pug was surprised we did it without a necro.

Yah, you have the freedom to play how you want but most people are gonna pick what everyone says works or is the easy way out. If people actually did what you said Gil, there wouldn't be an abundance of cookie cutter builds running around.

Look, this game isn't a collection of the world's best gamers, it's just a ton of people. That fact right there is the root of every single problem in an mmo. When this is the foundation of your playerbase people are gonna play cookie cutter builds and think cookie cutter strategies.

Gli · Aug 06, 2006, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arturo02

Cmon Gil, you know that's not true. There are so many people so set in their ways in this game on both ends. I was doing a quest on newbie isle and everyone insisted that I get an MM, can't do this quest w/o a mm. I had myself, an experienced player with a new char, two lvl 20 guildies, and a couple pickups. The same pug who said we needed an mm was also the one running ahead and leeroying out of our monk's range. He was the first to die of course.

Don't play with those people. Your choice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arturo02

Yah, you have the freedom to play how you want but most people are gonna pick what everyone says works or is the easy way out. If people actually did what you said Gil, there wouldn't be an abundance of cookie cutter builds running around.

That's because many people chose to run with the cookie-cutter option. That doesn't make it a problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arturo02

Look, this game isn't a collection of the world's best gamers, it's just a ton of people. That fact right there is the root of every single problem in an mmo. When this is the foundation of your playerbase people are gonna play cookie cutter builds and think cookie cutter strategies.

And there's the perfectly viable option of not playing with those people. I do play in cookie-cutter pugs sometimes, it can be fun. Of course it's fun, otherwise no one would be doing it. It's probably the only way pugs can work in the more difficult parts anyway. I usually have a lot more fun though if the pug is struggling to get the job done, but everyone hangs in there till the end.

I also go out and do any number of odd things when I feel like it, solo, with henchies or with guildies. Some PvP people are fond of saying: "Go find a guild, the game is called Guild Wars for a reason." That goes for PvE as well.

seanedsw28 · Aug 06, 2006, 10:00 PM // 22:00

I use to pvp but they're are to many jerks who want the gladiator title.

Metanoia · Aug 06, 2006, 10:46 PM // 22:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

Don't play with those people. Your choice.

See, now that's a fact. Whether or not people consider cookie-cutter mentality a problem, that's an opinion. People often confuse facts with their opinions, it's okay.

"PvE doesn't have a cookie-cutter problem AT ALL, because you are 100% in control of the people who share your game instances with you."
Street-crime isn't a problem AT ALL, because you don't have to leave your house.
Cheap analogy, but I hope you try to understand where it's coming from.
To those that want to play with other people, PvE cookie-cutter mentality can be a very big problem.

Quote:

If there weren't any pre-game coordination, I'd be sitting around the guild hall waiting for someone to join my scrimmage match until I starved. The walk to the flag stand is too long because the game that follows isn't worth it. Press some buttons, dodge some attacks, people die, game over. I fail to see how that could be fun to anyone. No challenge, no sense of accomplishment, no reward, no excitement. PvP reduced to pure mechanics with nothing to redeem the tedium. No thanks.

Obviously, telling your guildmates of the scrimmage helps with the attendance just as it does in PvE, or do your guildmates instinctively know when and where you're going to meet up to play?

Anyway, it seems that you've finally got around to explaining why you really don't like PvP rather than just blaiming FotMs. Although, to be fair...

"No challenge, no sense of accomplishment, no reward, no excitement."

Unless you win every single match, you can't suggest that there's "no challenge" in PvP.

Excitement, on the other hand, is subjective. Some people find playing against an intelligent (I know, I know... I use the term loosely) opponent exiciting. Some people find masturbatory AI-whacking exciting (I <3 innuendo).

IMO the sense of accomplishment depends entirely on the difficulty of the endeavor. Considering that, as you said...
"if you play PvE with a happy-go-lucky group, you can still win...And then there's PvP, where this approach can never work at all."
I'd have to disagree that PvP lacks a sense of accomplishment. If you could just win every game without so much as trying, what sense of accomplishment would there be? Besides, who said that happy-go-lucky can't work? There's nothing quite like taking TA by storm with a bizzare RA team and racking up 3+ Gladiator Points in the process.

Rewards? While Hero's Ascent does have actual rewards, I can understand where this point's coming from. For the sake of PvE, I doubt they'd ever change the game to allow you to exchange Balthazar Faction for tangible rewards such as rare skins. Luckily, most find the actual gameplay reward enough. As opposed to work, deserving of a reward.

*breathes in*

Ps.

Gli · Aug 06, 2006, 11:17 PM // 23:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metanoia

See, now that's a fact. Whether or not people consider cookie-cutter mentality a problem, that's an opinion. People often confuse facts with their opinions, it's okay.

"PvE doesn't have a cookie-cutter problem AT ALL, because you are 100% in control of the people who share your game instances with you."
Street-crime isn't a problem AT ALL, because you don't have to leave your house.
Cheap analogy, but I hope you try to understand where it's coming from.
To those that want to play with other people, PvE cookie-cutter mentality can be a very big problem.

That analogy isn't just cheap, it's dead wrong.

Those that want to play with other people just have to look a bit harder for the right kind of people. I never had any trouble finding people to play with who share my outlook on the game. I'll maintain, there isn't a problem with the cookie-cutter mentality in PvE. There's the mentality, sure, but I wouldn't call it a problem. If there is a problem, it's people being too lazy or resigned to find a way around it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metanoia

Obviously, telling your guildmates of the scrimmage helps with the attendance just as it does in PvE, or do your guildmates instinctively know when and where you're going to meet up to play?

As a matter of fact, yes, we never arrange anything. We tend to just show up online at random and ask what's cooking, over the guild channel. We're a casual bunch, I'm one of the youngest, at 35 years. We all have families that take precedence and no one would dream of doing anything as silly as prearranging the hours we play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metanoia

Anyway, it seems that you've finally got around to explaining why you really don't like PvP rather than just blaiming FotMs. Although, to be fair...

"No challenge, no sense of accomplishment, no reward, no excitement."

Unless you win every single match, you can't suggest that there's "no challenge" in PvP.

I was saying all that referring to your scrimmage suggestion. It's not how I feel about PvP in general. Trust me, I do believe there is challenge, sense of accomplishment, reward and excitement in GW PvP.

I'll not respond to the rest of your post because you wrote that based upon a misunderstanding.

Metanoia · Aug 06, 2006, 11:35 PM // 23:35

I <3 happy endings.

"As a matter of fact, yes, we never arrange anything. We tend to just show up online at random and ask what's cooking, over the guild channel. We're a casual bunch..."

That was actually exactly what I meant. Just grabbing whoever's online, as you would with PvE, and playing Dodgeball or something.

Anyway...
Lub lub, night night.

Ps.

Edit: Nevermind. :I

Ventius Hozza · Aug 06, 2006, 11:39 PM // 23:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crimson Ashwood

Why Don't You PvP?

but... I do PvP... !? ^^

merdle · Aug 07, 2006, 02:34 AM // 02:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

You couldn't be more wrong. PvE doesn't have a cookie-cutter problem AT ALL, because you are 100% in control of the people who share your game instances with you. There's only as much 'cookie-cutterism' in PvE as you allow there to be. That means there's no problem whatsoever. There's the option to use cookie-cutter (team)builds, and there's the option not to. No problem there at all. Not even a hint of a problem. (Except for a couple of missions in Cantha.)

In PvP, you are at best able to chose 50% of your fellow players, and at worst only 12.5%. That leaves a lot of room for cookie-cutters.

Actually, you couldn't be more wrong (I can be hard headed too :P)

You always have 100% control over who you play with, pve or pvp. No one is forcing you to join any HA group, any gvg group, any TA group.

PvP is as fun as you make it. Me and my friends had a blast playing sig monks, (two sig of judgement, bane signet Mo/Me with skills to quickly recharge our sigs. only signets and mantras) in TA. We laughed at the people who complained that we only won cause our group had 3 monks in it, regardless of only one of them being a dedicated healer. This is soo an example of being forced to play with cookie cutter groups! it has to be, it's pvp.

in PvP you make what you want, and you take it where you want. If people don't agree with what your playing, then play with someone else.

I personally think you've had some horrible PvP related exchanges and it's spoiled your feelings towards it in general. I just wouldn't hang around HA anymore... or ever for that matter. The best feeling is cooking up something new, a new use of a skill, using an unused skill, making a new profession combo that people think will be stupid. If you have enough friends in your guild, then you guys could have a blast testing it at the temple, then TA, then HA or GVG.

PvP is one big bottle of exploration, that's been shaken too long and is ready to explode!

gotdangit I suddenly wish my guild was gvging tonite.

Arturo02 · Aug 07, 2006, 02:45 AM // 02:45

"Don't play with those people. Your choice."

I agree, if you are a person who has the time and patience to do this, you will enjoy gw a lot more. But do we really have a choice, when the game has no choice who it lets in to play?

You really aren't talking about people who play cc builds but rather competant people. I have seen a ton of people run a cc build and be a contributor to a group. Just because people use them doesn't mean they are bad or the concept is bad for the game.

The real problem as I said before is who plays the game, not builds. It's like having kids, anyone can do it. But it doesn't mean everyone should.

Killaya · Aug 07, 2006, 02:55 AM // 02:55

People in HA will only let you in their party if you are ranked, and how can you GET ranked if no one will let you in a group, and most of the unranked groups are crap? That's what has stopped me from PvP. I do RA sometimes but it's not the same really.

However I do enjoy AB very much, simply because there's more action and it's just generally more fun for me. No one cares about rank, it's just good fun.

Poison Ivy · Aug 07, 2006, 03:03 AM // 03:03

Why don't I PvP...well...

GvG, every game lasts more than 30 minutes these days until VoD, espeacially those ones when the enemies have Ritualists in their team, that totally screws the fun up, I normally get bored after every 2 GvGs.

As for TA and RA, I normally don't have the time to even bother with TA, every round is almost the same, and the 4 people limit, that for me makes it boring. I do RA normally to test builds or just to have a bit of fun (which usually starts getting boring after 10 consective wins). I like big battles with lots of people and extensive teamwork, so normally I'd even choose GvG over TA/RA.

For HA, I'd really enjoy it, the only thing I hate about it is the rank crap. Yes, it was sort if my fault for not going into HA ealier when everyone else was building rank, so that's not really an excuse, but when your exprinced and get refused from high rank teams who might not even be as exprinced as you are, that totally blows.

That's why, good reasons no?

Gli · Aug 07, 2006, 03:08 AM // 03:08

Quote: